Stronghold Builders Guide Rant

[WarhookDM]

OK, a little over a year ago, I bought the SBG because the group I was running had decided to restore an ancient fortress, and use it as a base. After reading the book, and carefully considering all the info, I concluded:
1) The layouts and descriptions are great, and very useful:)
2) The available magical augmentations are awesome:D
3) Whoever set up the pricing must have been out of his freaking mind! Example: Barracks (basic) costs 400 gp, and can house 20 men. This cost does NOT include walls or structure. It is only for the furniture, and a privy (built elsewhere). Let's see, I'm building a castle, and I'm going to spend 400 gp for 20 rough wooden bed frames, straw filled mattresses, 20 small chests, some weapons racks, and a couple two-holers?! :extra3:
The only way I could even come close to the 400gp listed would be to include good quality locks (DC 30) for each chest. That isn't an item the lord of the castle would typically buy for each and every man-at-arms.

I mean, really!

And don't get me started on the Landlord feat. This is something any half-decent DM would want to role-play out, not require the PC to spend a feat to get. We house-ruled this feat out.

I finally had to go through each of the spaces, figure out what the listed equipment in them would cost, and reprice that entire section. Then extrapolate reasonable wall costs from the original DMG (1st Ed.). I will post the adjusted prices later if anyone is interested.

After discussions and posts in other places, the only explanation I got regarding the listed prices was along the lines of: WoTC writers don't want PC's building castles. :confused: Isn't this really up to individual DM's? (And speaking as a DM, my worst nightmare is a group of 12th+ Level PC's who won't put down roots. How do you get them to do the really cool stuff if they have nothing to defend?)

Other comments on this issue strongly desired! Shoot, if all else fails, convince me that I'm wrong; I try to maintain an open mind.
:extra5:

[Mordrid]

I use the old 2nd edition books for Strongholds that TSR put out back in 96. The rules are much much better

[WarhookDM]

Don't have them, so I have had to extrapolate on my own.
1 player in my group posited that from what he could see, they simply multiplied all 2nd Ed costs by a factor of 20 or so, since the standard coin in 3rd Ed is the gold piece, while in 1st/2nd, it was really the silver piece. Also, there are now 50 gp to a pound, not 10, and only 10 sp to 1 gp, not 20.

[Mordrid]

Go to a used book store, its where I got mine

[Swashbuckler]

I've used the 1st Edition list for basic castle structures/costs ever since ... well, 1st Edition! :) It's not as comprehensive as the SBG, but it's a fair shot better as far as costs for castle structures in terms of gold. You can find it in the 1st Ed DMG.

[WarhookDM]

That's what I've been doing. I'm just wondering if I'm the only one, and what other solutions have been being used.

[ebaatezu]

please post the adjustments that you mentioned you have made. i am a dm and i have 2 players that want to build fortresses and i find the prices in the book to be totally ridiculous as well. thank you :)

[TheEponymousOne]

You know, it's times like this that I really come to apprieciate the wish spell. Ever so useful for restoring buildings. At least, so my DM says. But then, he also said... we won't go into that. But yes, I see your point, 400 gp for some beds is a bit steep to say the least.

What does Landlord do? (Don't have the SBG)

[WarhookDM]

Landlord is a feat that grants the PC an amount of GP (level dependent) to build a keep. The idea is that the PC finds a wealthy king or lord to underwrite the cost of construction. No DM (that I know) worth his books would allow this under normal circumstances. This is something that any decent DM would want to ROLE-PLAY out, and certainly wouldn't allow a player to spend a feat on.

Sorry if this seems a bit strong, but it really irks me. :extra3:

Oh, and I'm not ignoring the request for the price list I use. I am reconstructing it. A worm ate my hard-drive a couple weeks ago. . . :extra3: :extra3: :extra3:

[WarhookDM]

please post the adjustments that you mentioned you have made. i am a dm and i have 2 players that want to build fortresses and i find the prices in the book to be totally ridiculous as well. thank you :)

OK, folks. Sorry for the delay; between the worm, finals, and suddenly becoming a mod [ :D ], I've been a bit busy. At any rate, here are the prices I have come up with:

Alchemical Lab, Basic.....300 gp ........ Alchemical Lab, Fancy.........1000 gp
Armory, Basic.................50 gp ........ Armory, Fancy.....................500 gp
Auditorium, Fancy..........750 gp ....... Auditorium, Luxury...............3000 gp
Barbican........................ ** .......... Barracks...............................50 gp
Bath, Basic...................400 gp ....... Bath, Fancy.........................250 gp
Bath, Luxury................2500 gp ...... Bedroom Suite, Basic..............100 gp
Bedroom Suite, Fancy.....750 gp ...... Bedroom Suite, Luxury...........5000 gp
Bedrooms, Basic..............70 gp ....... Bedrooms, Fancy...................400 gp
Bedrooms, Luxury.........4000 gp ....... Chapel, Basic........................200 gp
Chapel, Fancy.............1500 gp ........ Chapel, Luxury...................10000 gp
Common Area, Basic........75 gp ........ Common Area, Fancy..............500 gp
Courtyards: Basic (gravelled) - 40 gp........Basic(grassy/dirt) - 20 gp
Fancy .............. 400 gp plus cost of statuary
Luxury ............ 3000 gp plus cost of statuary
Dining Hall, Basic................200 gp .... Dining Hall, Fancy................3000 gp
Dining Hall, Luxury...........10000 gp .... Dock, Basic...........................50 gp
Dock, Extended..................300 gp .... Dock, Extended Dry.............3000 gp
Gatehouse........................ ** ......... Guard Post........................... **
Kitchen, Basic....................200 gp .... Kitchen, Fancy...................1000 gp
Kitchen, Luxury.................5000 gp .... Labyrinth............................100 gp
Library, Basic.....................100 gp ..... Library, Fancy...................1000 gp
Library, Luxury..................5000 gp .... Magic Lab, Basic..................500 gp
Magic Lab, Fancy..............1000 gp ..... Prison Cell..........................100 gp
Servants' Quarters................40 gp ..... Shop, Basic.......................200 gp
Shop, Fancy.....................1000 gp ..... Shop, Luxury....................5000 gp
Smithy, Basic.............................100 gp (MW tools extra)
Smithy, Fancy..........................1000 gp
Stable, Basic.............................100 gp plus tack, harness, & equipment
Stable, Fancy............................300 gp plus tack, harness, & equipment
Stable, Luxury..........................1200 gp plus tack, harness, & equipment
Storage, Basic.............................25 gp .... Storage, Fancy............100 gp
Storage, Luxury..................750 gp ..... Study/Office, Basic...............50 gp
Study/Office, Fancy............200 gp ..... Study/Office, Luxury..........2000 gp
Tavern, Basic.....................400 gp ..... Tavern, Fancy..................2000 gp
Tavern, Luxury................10000 gp ..... Throne Room, Basic...........2000 gp
Throne Room, Fancy.........12000 gp ..... Throne Room, Luxury........60000 gp
Torture Chamber................3000 gp ..... Training Area, Combat...........50 gp
Training Area, Rogue............200 gp ...... Trophy Hall, Basic...............100 gp
Trophy Hall, Fancy.............1500 gp ...... Workplace, Basic................100 gp
Workplace, Fancy..............1000 gp

{** - empty space (0 gp), but include material for it with wall costs}

Height adjustments to cost: this requires some explanation. Basically, it costs extra to go higher than 20 feet up, in MOST cases. However, this should not be done on a per space basis. What is really happenning here is that the walls are being made thicker and stronger to bear the weight. However, not always. Spaces inserted in the attic area of a peaked roof won't add to the cost of construction. Additional floors above 20' (ie the outside walls go above 20') will add to the total wall costs by a factor of 1/4 of basic cost per floor above 20' (and may require additional reinforcing with buttresses or pillasters - see below).

Depth adjustments to costs: each additional subteranean layer below the first will add 10% per layer to the labor costs, and increasing the build time by the same factor. I also assume that a minimum of 10' of rock must exist between layers. Otherwise, you are really just digging a big daggone hole, and then using standard above-ground building costs and techniques.

Labor Costs: assumes a 100 man construction crew, and will cost 500 gp/month. This breaks down to 1 Expert5 Manager, 9 Expert3 Foremen, and 90 Laborers (Commoner1 or Expert1). [The Laborers would cost 4 gp/month, the foremen 10 gp/month, and the Manager gets the rest {360+90=450, Expert5 gets 50 gp/month}.] Add an additional 10 to 20 gp/month for each additional level the manager has. This cost can be adjusted somewhat for other factors; if construction is well away from a civilized area, food may have to be provided. Hazardous areas will rapidly magnify costs (double or triple would not be uncommon).

Construction times: If you use one crew, 10 days per 1000 gp in material costs works pretty well. Material costs are the cost of the walls and the spaces combined. Adding additional crews will accelerate construction, but it won't quite halve it. 2nd crew: reduces construction time to 10 days per 1800 gp material costs. 3rd crew: Construction time of ten days per 2500 gp material costs. [Note: The World of Greyhawk uses a 7 day week, NOT a 10 day week, but most of the other books use a 10 day week, so I was forced to convert building times.] The reduced efficiency of the additional crews accounts for too many workmen tripping over one another, arguments among the leaders and foremen, etc. Going beyond a third crew will not greatly increase speed, but if somebody wants to, figure crew number 4 can complete an additional 600 gp in material costs per 10 days, and each additional crew beyond that can complete 500 gp in materials per 10 days.

Wall costs: remember, these are NOT included in the cost of each space (that's why I disagree with SBG standard prices!), neither is the cost of the floors, or ceilings). I use the FREESTANDING wall costs, at 1/10th SBG cost,for all exterior walls. For the interior walls, I again use 1/10th SBG costs. For Curtain walls, I assume them to be basic masonry walls, 10' thich, 20' high, and charge 1000 gp per 10' wall section (by SBG costs this would ordinarily cost 2250 gp per 10' length. Basically, I multiplied the 1st Ed. cost of 1000 gp/100' section by 10 (that is the basic economic difference in coin values between 1st/2nd and 3rd Edition. Also, I don't require walls to be thickened until they reach higher than 20'; SBG requires thickening above 10'. Basic engineering principles do not require this, or the Empire State building's walls would be a hell of a lot thicker than 12' at the base. [it's a little over 900' tall, if memory serves; by the SBG, the base walls would be over 100' thick]. Also, rather than building thicker walls for expanded heights, I use the Buttress/Pilaster costs in the 1st Ed. DMG, multiplied by 10. I would suggest that Pilasters would need to placed every 20'; buttresses every 40', and require them on ANY wall that extends more than 100' between towers. A buttress or pilaster will normally be 20' high. Pillasters can be stacked vertically for higher heights. Buttresses, however don't work that way; they have to be layered the way the SBG layers walls above 10' - in other words, one buttress for a 40' tall wall actually requires 3 buttress sections, where the pillaster for that height would only need 2 sections. Flying Buttresses would only need 2 sections (for a 40' height), but each additional section costs 30% more than normal. Essentially, they eliminate 1 needed section per layer below the first. Also, the max height for a flying buttress is 60', in my campaign. [A sixty foot buttress would need 6 sections (1+2+3), the flying version would only need 4 (1+1+2), but three of them would be at +30% per section. This is a net cost savings of 1 section, and 10% of the second section, BTW.]

Magical Enhancements: use the SBG standard costs; they seem pretty reasonable.

Battlements: (from 1st Ed.) 10 gp/10' section of battlement.
Machicolation: 30 gp/10' section of wall, assuming standard 20' wall height.

Other notes: the various other construction factors in the SBG (terrain, climate, distance to nearby settlements, and nearby features) seem to work pretty well, with one exception. A nearby hostile lair will cause the labor force to demand hazardous pay, and/or proof that the threat has been contained or eliminated. Note also that the various modifiers do NOT directly affect LABOR costs, in most cases, though they will affect build times, which may increase or decrease labor costs. Also, magical enhancements do not affect build times, but can become a timing nightmare for all concerned, as the enhancements must be done when the sections to be enhanced are nearing completion. {A good DM can have some real FUN here! :D }

[airlonnie]

god, I had a character that wanted to build walls using the "Create Iron Wall" spell. This guide is very helpful, thank you. Also, ebay has some good prices on some of the older books.

[WarhookDM]

Glad to help.

Oh, and I had to do some minor edits just now. The Buttress explanation was a bit off.

[Avorage]

The other option of course for building a castle is to do the following:

1) buy all the raw materials you need
2) place them in a big pile in the middle of the area you want to build
3) buy a Lyre of Building for ONLY 13K
4) play the lyre and watch it do ALL the work for you :D

Because of the extreme overpower of the item, it's become 'artifact' status in my campaigns.

[WarhookDM]

LOL. I know what you mean. Two of the party members in my campaign HAVE those (one was in a treasure trove I randomly rolled; the other one was made by that particular PC). They rebuilt over half of a town that had been laid waste by a ticked off dragon. . .in ONE DAY. Just under 300 two story buildings. . .in 20 hours of playing (they took ten on all their rolls, and lasted 20 hours before fatigue set in). Needless to say, the local Duke is helping them with funding for their own buildings inside a huge fortress they are rebuilding nearby.

BTW, this is how a good DM gets PC's help with building Keeps. He role-plays it out; he doesn't make the PC's burn up a feat to do it.

The other way you prevent PC's from getting those Lyres: anyone who has one, simply won't sell it. (In my party, it also helps that they don't like Lyres. so when the one PC made one, he spent extra (via spell-research) to make it in the form of a flute. The set they found recently was a drum. Oh, and they had a third one early on; they gave it to a halfling bard in the area before they realized how powerful the item was. He uses it for them on occasion, and it makes for good comedy - I made THAT one a set of bagpipes (LOL)!

"Right, Lads! Grab yer cats! 'Tis time fer war!"

Oh, and BTW, the Lyre will gather certain materials all by itself, provided they are in the area (wood, stone, that sort of thing). But a good DM will rule that UNLESS they buy the stuff and ship it in first, they can't use superior masonry or better, nor living wood, or any of the other really GOOD building materials. Plus, it won't do magical enhancements, etc. So all it really saves on is labor costs.

[WarhookDM]

I discovered an error on my labor costs, so that small portion of my pricing needs to be errata'd. Food for a 100 man crew will cost a minimum of 840 gp per month. Therefore, labor costs have been reset to 1400 gp per month, per crew.

WarhookDM

[Kian]

840gp on food for 100 guys to eat on a month? What, you planning on feeding them more than once a day or something? ;)

[WarhookDM]

That would be three poor quality meals per day, per man, or one GOOD meal per day, per man. Those prices are from the PHB. One of my players pointed that one out to me. Hey, they gotta eat. And the wage they are getting paid won't do it, unless they emigrate to the area, and set up a small farm or something.