Embarassing/funny situation and question

[WarhookDM]

OK, here's the situation. Two members of a party have gone down a tunnel 3' wide, and 3' tall, and with a 45 degree slope in a Kobold warren. One of them is holding a rope; the Paladin of the group is holding the other end of the rope at the top. When the two in the tunnel near the end of this little tunnel, an alarm gong sounds. The halfling holding the rope drops his end. The Paladin tells the other guy with him that "the rope just went slack". PC #4 dives into the tunnel. Then the Kobold Sorceror in the room at the other end uncorks a lightning bolt. The Paladin now dives into the tunnel on his hands and knees, behind PC #4 (an elf). The Paladin has boots of striding and springing, the elf doesn't. The paladin has a movement of 30 on all fours, which is twice the movement of the elf.

The Paladin tries to help the Elf move faster, being worried about his teammates (the odor of fried halfling urges him along). The elf falls, taking 4 points of subdual damage (he is either a psion or psychic warrior). DM says "that was stupid; you caused damage to a teammate, and are now a warrior". To add to the comedy, the elf now uses the skate power, and goes into an uncontrolled slide down the tunnel. He hits the grate at the end with enough force to end up with his head through the bars, and starts suffocating (despite the velocity, the grate holds). Understand that he slid about 150' before he hit the grate, and the halfling (barely) was able to get out of the way in time to avoid the hurtling elf (he was able to cling to the ceiling just in time).

Opinions on this, please. After you stop :rotflmao:
By the way, the primary question is about Paladin status, but feel free to comment on any other issues you see.

[Valiente]

Holy crap!! LMAO!!!

While that is indeed unfortunate that the Paly caused some amateur damage, I don't think that would warrant a loss of Paladin status. It does not seem like he did what he did to purposefully cause any harm to his party members, regardless of the unfortunate circumstances that followed his actions. He was acting with the intent to save the halfling and PC#2 (I think)...and it could be argued by some players and DMs that if the paly hadn't acted as such, that would have been a show of cowardice and abandonment of party members, which would also cause a loss of status.



Just my opinion, though. ^_^

[WarhookDM]

Yeah, that was my thinking. The DM is basing his decision on "The Book of Exalted Deeds", which states that causing harm to teammates, even unintentionally, causes loss of status. Makes it kind of hard to argue.

[Valiente]

Blech.

While that's understandable, I think those standards are set a wee bit too high. Very kick ass book though-can't wait to get it.

My BF laughed because the first words out of my mouth were-- "FINALLY!!! A book for the good guys!"

[WarhookDM]

I'm still trying to figure out an argument to retain Paly status. HELP!!!

[Valiente]

Hmm..

Are you being threatened by losing them permanently? Or do you have to atone?

If the DM is completely unwavering (Which I still think is a wee bit silly) what about atonement? After all, it's not like the paly tried to hurt someone.

IMHO, the best they could get him for would be acting brashly and therefore causing unintentional harm to a party member--something that would cause suspension of paly abilities, but not a total loss.

[WarhookDM]

Well, there he is at least being reasonable. I will merely need to do an atonement.

[KaitouKurogo]

**Snort-chuckle** Quite a comedy of errors going on there...Hopefully you can pull atonement and preserve your abilities...though is all else goes wrong, you could always become an Anti-Paladin. ^^

I was in a party a while back consisting of an human warrior, an elvish sorcerer (myself being the sorcerer) and a human barbarian. The three, while exploring a dungeon, enter a 10 by 10 foot hall that ends in a shoddily built wooden wall with a 4 foot tall door. This was Kobold turf and they'd stumbled across an essential bunker of the little buggers. One of the Kobolds hears the party coming and opens the door to see what the noise is. The Human Warrior, bearing a spear, gets first crack and charges the poor little guy. What we have here is a big human with a big spear charging at a little Kobold with nowhere to go...

He rolled a 2.

Next thing we know, our Warrior trips over his bootlaces, plants his spear into the stonework as he falls, and ends up pole-vaulting himself over the Kobold and crashing through the poorly built wooden wall. He lands on two of the other Kobolds inside, killing one instantly and wounding the other. What they didn't realize was that there was a big room on the other side of the door and about fifty Kobolds (o_o) that weren't too happy to see the adventurers.

You haven't lived until you've charged out of a dungeon and through a nearby village with an army of Kobolds hot on your heels. ^_^

[WarhookDM]

:rotflmao:

My only question is: why did your DM treat a 2 as a fumble (sort of)?

Hmmm. . .might make for an entertaining secret DM rule; on a really poor roll, something hilarious happens. . . I might have to start using that. :D

[Valiente]

We use the variant roll for roliing 1's...automatic failure, even for skills and stuff.

We had an elven rogue that rolled a 1 on a disguise check in our Underdark campaign--he was trying to pass himself off as a wizard, and his disguise was actually the following:

A mint green silk bathrobe, curly toed jester shoes, a point hat with bells all around the edge and on the tip, a thick, impressive looking book that was only impressive until you read the title of 10,000 recipes, and a broom stick, with the broom still attatched.

Needless to say, it was pretty amusing. ^_^

[WarhookDM]

I like it!

[Valiente]

Yeah, it can be pretty funny sometimes.

Like my rogue totally botched a tumble check, so the joke was that she starts out lookin' awesome, the Matrix music kicks in, and just as she's about to start flipping all over the place, she wipes out and the music just keeps going, LoL.

Of course, there was no music or anything, but I think it's always good to throw in funny stuff like that when things like that do happen.

Lucky for me, my rogue was slippery and managed to tumble up next round without provoking any AoO. Whew. ^_^

[pixsye]

Um, just to let your DM know, boots of striding and springing increase your speed, but you still have the option to move slowly. As far as the skate ability, it doesn't make you skate (take this from an AVID psion player - never been anything else) like you're on wheels. It gives you the ability to move over terrain unerringly without requiring walking. It helps in needing to move long distances where you may get tired. Again, it's like walking, and you decide which direction you want to go (as long as you could do so if you were walking) and how slow or fast.

Outward thoughts, take them with a grain of sand if you must.

pixsye :angel:

[WarhookDM]

Interesting point, Pix, if a bit late. :D

Personally, I think he was screwing with me because he and I disagree about what activities a Paladin can participate in. He especially flipped out the first time this PC walked into a whorehouse and rented himself some companionship for the night (but I was able to completely justify this within Lawful Good strictures, which truly irritated him!).

Did I mention that I have never bought into the idea that Paladins MUST be LASPs?
(LASP> Lawful An*l Stupid Pr*ck)

[Valiente]

Heheheh, I'm so glad you bring that point up, War!

I want nothing more than to make a terribly charming, womanizing paladin sometime, LOL. Such fun, sometimes.

Now I have to present my own embarassing/funny situation. I put it up in the other busy thread, but it might be more in place over here, heh..


A campaign I'm playing in now is set in the Kingdoms of Kalamar. I'm playing a 5th level cleric of the Night Watchman/Coddler, and while my companions and I were travelling through the immense, elven forest we have the pleasure to meet a green dragon, young adult I believe.

The dragon was going to eat the party, because green dragons can and like to do things like that....and then he noticed my 16 charisma (then level 3)cleric, and decided he'd take her in exchange for their passage. Now the rest of my party members have at BEST a 10 charisma...and what does the dwarf do? Decides arguing with the thing is a good idea.

Anyways, long and short of it is, my cleric is now ENGAGED to the dragon. She has to return in two years (if she's not dead) to marry him, and signed an agreement with him. This agreement of course ensured the safety of the rest of the party...but now what?! My cleric is NG, which clearly does not mix with lawful evil.

What do I do?! Hope that she's dead in two years, or hope she and the rest of the party are bad ass enough to take the dragon on when the time comes? If I go with the latter, would I take an alignment hit, since she did after all, give her word in good faith and the dragon kept his?

[WarhookDM]

Depends on the wording of the agreement; words MEAN things. Especially to LE Dragons. If the agreement is "in two years, provided you are alive at that time, we marry. . ." then you will have to do some questing to become pwerful enough to kill or subdue said dragon.

If, however, the agreement is "provided you do not die before then, we will marry on thus and such a day", you have a fairly easy (if somewhat expensive) out. Die, get word to the dragon, then get raised/resurrected. Since you died before the wedding date, the agreement is null and void.

There is of course a third option (this would be the lawful good way to deal with this vow): go through with it, and then CONVERT the dragon. The one disagreement I have with dragon descriptions in the manuals is the part that says "Alignment: ALWAYS XXX". These are supremely intelligent beings, and presumably have as much free will as any other denizen in a D & D world. There is absolutely no reason for a chromatic (or any other) dragon to ALWAYS be one certain alignment, at least after reaching adulthood.

Ooooh! Idea for a nasty BBED!!!! A Silver, with a Chaotic Evil alignment, and (maybe) a few levels of Blackguard to boot. :EVILGRIN: Must remember this option for Epic level adventure in my campaign!!!!

[Valiente]

Whoa! You're all kinds of wicked, War! LoL

I've thought about the conversion idea, because I totally agree with you that why must they ALWAYS be one alignment? Especially when the book even says some dragons are raised with non-dragon parents? Kinda' like the Drow to me. Nothing says they HAVE to be bad...though the best I could hope for would likely be LN. She's only human after all, and might get eaten before she gets anywhere NEAR good, LOL.

I also got to thinking about it because what if my character does end up getting married to the dragon, and ends up having lil' half-dragon kids? According to the MM, the kids would be LE too. But, if the dragon abandons her and the halfs (and I'm sure you know that the MM also says a dragon abandons it's half-blood offspring)...who's to say that the kids must be inherently evil? Especially when my character is so painfully good? Not that I ever expect the game to really go that long, but hey, I think about these things, LoL.

As far as the agreement, I just remembered something really bad, LOL. While the DM and I didn't actually come up with a written agreement...he just said 'this is what it says, more or less, which was basically "Your daughter has agreed to marry me. Her former suitor is to be dismissed immediately. Blah blah blah..."--insert more flowery and proper sounding words, you get the idea'....sooooo, no formal document. I should probably ask him to write up the details for it.

Anywho, the dragon made two copies of said agreement. One in draconic, and one in my characters native language; both signed the second copy, after which he sealed it with wax and such not, so she won't be able to get in it.

So now I have this question. Since green dragons are LE, would it be in the alignment for the dragon to have written up a differently worded agreement in draconic? If so, considering she did not sign the draconic agreement, would she be bound? I say no, but then that would likely cause my character to eaten then---or would provoke a fight. But, the dragon is still only going to be a YA by then, though the DM kinda let it slip to me that he's also going to have class levels by the time we get back.

Gah! Fine mess I've gotten myself in to, LoL.

[WarhookDM]

Anywho, the dragon made two copies of said agreement. One in draconic, and one in my characters native language; both signed the second copy, after which he sealed it with wax and such not, so she won't be able to get in it.

So now I have this question. Since green dragons are LE, would it be in the alignment for the dragon to have written up a differently worded agreement in draconic? If so, considering she did not sign the draconic agreement, would she be bound? I say no, but then that would likely cause my character to eaten then---or would provoke a fight. But, the dragon is still only going to be a YA by then, though the DM kinda let it slip to me that he's also going to have class levels by the time we get back.

Gah! Fine mess I've gotten myself in to, LoL.

Don't forget the "Lawful" portion of the LE alignment. Lawful Evil generally twist the law to suit their own ends, but they do FOLLOW it. If the draconic version is not the same as the other version, it is not a lawful agreement, and would not follow alignment. A differently worded document would be more in the Chaotic vein.

If you have your DM formally write up the agreement (and I would!), DO NOT tell the DM about your escape clause option, but do try to get the DM to agree to the "provided you have not died before then" wording. Then you can surprise him/her if you do die and get raised/ressurrected.

Unfortunately for you, if you break the agreement, you will be risking alignment change or will find yourself needing an Atonement spell. If you are a cleric, this can be particularly ugly, as your deity may refuse to grant you spells until you atone; in other words, you become a Warrior, without the extra weapon proficiencies, etc.

I actually enforce this in my campaign - our Cleric of Kord was forced to choose between Atonement or becoming CN after causing the death of some innocents during a delve (he pointed out to our somewhat fireball-happy Wizard a room full of derro females, two of whom were pregnant, and most of whom were unarmed; guess what the Wizard did! It was a circular room, of the exact dimensions of a fireball. . .). He chose to become CN; this cost him two prestige-class levels, as he no longer met the pre-reqs for that class. It fit his PC's development, but was (IMHO) a stupid choice. (I'd have taken the Atonement, and paid closer attention to alignment restrictions in the future.)

[Valiente]

Hmmm...

Only problem with that is that the DM is notoriously sneaky, and has a habit of interpretting rules differently than one would expect.

But, that's the best solution. Thanks for the help, War! ^_^!!

And that would be the super-suck for my character to lose her spells...she'd get squished in a heart beat. >.< Can't have that happening...

[pixsye]

Um...I just have one observation about the agreement that may mean the draconic version (even though not signed by you) is still legal and binding. If anywhere in the version you signed says something to the effect of "all written documentation", etc., then you're screwed because although you didn't sign it, it's still written and you signed the single agreement that suggests such. The good thing about that is that I'm a vicious DM and have a tendency of playing evil characters (and lawful characters) better than most of the people I know, so perhaps your DM did not think about this particular clause.

Good job getting engaged to a dragon, however. In the draconomicon, there is a short blurb about dragons leaving their half-blood offspring, but before they do, they kill the parent who made them half-blood. It's kind of like an abomination sort of thing with the Yuan-Ti, ya'know?!? Like War said, try persuading the DM to write the agreement in some sort of perferrable favor. You may be able to get out of it easily.

pixsye :angel:

[Valiente]

I know for a fact my DM does not use the Draconomicon, or any 2nd ed. stuff.

At any rate, when we played this out he also did not mention anything about "all written documentation." This leads me to believe he didn't intend for this to happen, and actually had planned on our party fighting the dragon.

Also, the DM is kinda sneaky...if I were to mention anything like that and ask him to write up the agreement, he'd slip that in. I don't want to give him any ideas. Though, if I don't ask him for the agreement, he'll likely try to slip it in at the end, if the agreement ever has to be made good on.

Anyways, I have 'nother question for you guys.

Is there a way to get said message to my characters parents? The distance is REALLY far--for those familiar with Kalamar, my character is from Brandobia and is currently in Et-Kessel (I think; I'm not too good with the names yet). As my DM said, it's close to the distance of travelling from Japan to the Near East. Needless to say, quite a distance. So, if there is a good way to get the message sent, what is it? Any ideas?

[WarhookDM]

It seems to me that the "Message" spell would work. I think it's only range limit is that you must be on the same plane of existence. Check the PHB - it's either "message" or "sending", or maybe a higher level version of one of them?

Otherwise, you will have to commission a messenger to carry a letter. Doable, but expensive. Also, it will take a lot longer to get there.

Another possibility would be dependent on the presence of fairly large Mages Guilds in both areas. They would likely be able to communicate with each other easily and rapidly. . .but they will also charge a hefty fee to deliver said message.

[pixsye]

The hirelings are usually the most available (and much less expensive) way of getting messages from one place to the next (unless you're a magic user). Of course, if you were to speak to your bride-groom to be, he might get the message to your family (if you gave the appearance of being at all interested in the union). It's fairly free and he'll more likely than not have someone else deliver the message so as to not be hunted upon entering the city.

pixsye :angel:

[Valiente]

Hmmm....

Well, one of the problems with the Kalamar setting is that it's a very low magic setting. Arcane casters are 'generally' looked upon as witches, unless they're elves....so likely no magic guilds. And my character would rather NOT have the dragon personally deliver the message, because the dragon clearly stated he'd eat her family and former suitor if he ever did go that far to the west.

Anyways, thanks a bunch for the suggestions/help, everyone! Muchly appreciated!

[TheEponymousOne]

Warhook was right- it's sending, a 4th level cleric spell, and it will work, as long as you can summarize your condition in 25 words or less. Also, animal messenger might work, but it's probably too far for an animal to travel. Interesting condition, perhaps you could find a mage to wish it otherwise? Or wish the dragon good, perhaps? Though you say this is a low-magic world, so I doubt it.

[WarhookDM]

Yup - it's "Sending", and any decent sized temple (such as what you would find in a fair sized city), will have a cleric capable of casting it. The good news is that it's a Divine spell when cast by a Cleric, and lower level to boot, so it's cheaper.

The bad news is that it is limited to 25 words or less, so you have to write out the message, and be pretty brief. Also, you have to know who it is being sent to with fair accuracy, or it will either fail, or go to the wrong person.